TU105: Narcissism – What is Going on Under the Defense with Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley

by | Oct 3, 2019 | Brain Science, Episodes, Narcissism, Neuroscience, Relationships, Trauma

Show Notes

Hey everybody, we are BACK and ready to take off on Season 4!!! Wahoo!

Narcissism – This time we focus on how it’s created and what is going on behind the narcissists defenses. Later we will address Malignant Narcissism, which is in a class all to itself! It deserves an entire episode, but for today we will look at what causes it, healthy and pathological degrees of it and what is really going on under the hood of the person afflicted with narcissism.

We really heard the requests wanting to hear more about some of the diagnostic pieces of attachment, trauma and the relational sciences. Specifically, narcissism and borderline personality disorder are of great interest to many of you.  We put our heads together about how to best do this in a way that honors those who are struggling with these issues and those in relationship with them. To do this, we are going to weave conversations about narcissism and borderline personality disorder throughout the season. It may be snippets in a podcast about something else, or entire episodes focused on these concerns.

Today, we’re going to get started on narcissism.

Greek version of the myth:

Narcissus, was the son of River God Cephisus and nymph Lyriope. He was known for his beauty and he was loved by God Apollo due to his extraordinary physique.

Narcissus was once walking by a lake or river and decided to drink some water; he saw his reflection in the water and was surprised by the beauty he saw; he became entranced by the reflection of himself. He could not obtain the object of his desire though, and he died at the banks of the river or lake from his sorrow.

According to the myth Narcissus is still admiring himself in the Underworld, looking at the waters of the Styx.

Healthy Narcissism (!?)

We all have some element of Narcissism and if we don’t, we get run over in life. We don’t want to be a doormat but we also don’t want to be on a High Horse above it all. We all have narcissism, it’s healthy entitlement.

Functional narcissism is about your sense of Self, healthy entitlement and being inside yourself, and really rolling with who you are as a person. It’s being confident instead of being overly in-tune to others opinion of you.

Problematic Narcissism

If it’s a character trait rather than a moment in time, it’s all about defense. This defense protects the smallness and inadequacy and shame at it’s core, and to compensate, grandiosity is born. That or the opposite, which we will discuss, but if I attack the hell out of myself then I protect myself from you having less than positive feelings about me because I beat you to it.

Basically, it’s about deriving self-esteem from outside affirmation in order to maintain internal validity.

Narcissism is an injury to the Self, where we’ve had to give ourselves up in service of the other or blow ouselves up to feel “enough”.

It is associated with the avoidant/dissmissing attachment category, or the blue side of the attachment spectrum.

Narcissistic Tendencies Versus a Disorder (from a Psychologist’s Perspective)

It’s only in the much higher degree and more rigid degree of the trait that we would call it disordered or problematic. This is NOT a judgment. We mean it’s problematic for the person who suffers from it and that it infiltrates most every relationship to a point that it significantly impairs daily functioning or social relationships. Not that a person with true Narcissistic personality disorder would notice this distress, because everyone around them are “stupid” or “the best.” You can imagine stupid one’s are differentiated from them and the best one’s reflect their version of themselves.

Narcissistic Injury:

Example: The blue side – (avoidance/dismissive attachment) is a defense, whether we live there or whether we travel there. When we feel very deeply vulnerable but can’t tolerate that experience, we pull into what we call a narcissistic defense to avoid an injury.

We need a balance of healthy narcissism (affirmation from others to build our identity) and narcissistic injury (feeling hurt or injured if criticized or put down).

Grandiose Narcissism

This one is easy to spot and you can feel it because when their light shines on you, it feels so good. You feel so special and it’s amazing and you would almost do anything for them. If you’re mirroring them back and making them feel good, then you may get that light. But anything can happen where that light will move. And once that light moves, it is dark, and it is painful because that disconnection is tremendous, you holding on to them but they’ve moved on to the next shiney thing.

We are sorry to report what you probably already know, they were relating to you not from a place of a connection, but from a place of their need to be validated.

Negative Narcissism or Depressive Narcissism

Big grandiose narcissism isn’t the only issue, there is also the equal and opposite side of the coin. It’s basically “I am so horrible. I am worse than anybody on the planet”, which makes me very special in my badness.

What grandiose narcissism and negative narcissism have in common is the feeling of pulling away from a sense of connection or community and seeing yourself from the view that the risk of being in a related place is too much.

The Truth:

Inside every grandiose narcissist, there is this highly insecure, shame-filled child.

And inside every negative narcissist, there is the image of the Big Self that is not realized. 

If somebody lives in this place and really has that very early narcissistic injury, they are compelled by short term image. They would rather look good in the moment, but they’re not as concerned with the ongoing things like integrity and morality and trust over time.

When stricken with the problem, there’s not awareness of it so it’s hard to be compelled to look at it, there is so much to lose.

How Does Narcissism Develop

A common scenario is a person had narcissistic parents. This person was valued with what they brought to the parent for their role, not so much for who they were.

There’s always a judgement, even if the verdict is positive, they’re being evaluated.

So things are good or bad. They are good or bad. So, if you’re in a parent’s light, there’s a term that is important to understand called narcissistic extension. So, what happens for a child is that they learn that if I’m tap dancing or smiling or being good in a way or adoring – whatever it is that lights the parent up, then we’re good.

But if I begin to be mad, or differentiate, so that the parents are going to have to see inside of me instead of me see inside of them, then the connection is cut off.

Narcissistic Extension

This is when we have learned to support the other person’s ego by giving them what we know that they want. As kids we get highly skilled at reading a scene, knowing the unspoken and responding as wished. This is part of what causes the injury to the self, because in the midst of all that, where the heck are You?

If a child turns to their own needs and that parent feels that as a Break and is activated by it, it’s suddenly unsafe to tune in to their disapproval or distance. So we’d rather give ourselves up than lose our connection.

Often if you are in this dynamic, your achievements are a reflection of your parent’s worth.

Children and Achievement

Another way that you can create someone that struggles with narcissistic tendencies is to orbit the child and then the child believes they are the center of the universe. 🙂 Well they ARE the center of the universe for a fast minute, but that should only last a SHORT time. And truly they are only the center of your universe for their parents, and you do them no favors making them think they are extra-special OVER other children. They were shriveled raisins like everyone else and it is OXYTOCIN that make us think our coneheaded babies are THE VERY BEST BABY EVER. I mean, they are, of course, but only to us. We don’t want them growing up thinking they have to be the best, most special specimen of humanity to be Ok. Right?

If we keep propping our child up (over an extended period of time) into the most special thing in the universe and don’t give them natural, “no, you’re irritating. No, you’re this. No, you’re that” (Deflation), then they’re going to really be vulnerable to these narcissistic injuries later, and they won’t be able to tolerate boundaries or distress or bad grades or whatever that reflects their normalness. Not sure that’s a word but we will keep it it’s ok. 🙂

When children are over-inflated by parents they also know that they’re probably not THAT great. There’s an inconsistency there that can promote a need of a false self.  

When you’ve learned early on that there’s a need to mirror back your caregiver, then things like your own needs, your own vulnerabilities, can be experienced as humiliating. We’re not allowed to be needy, emotional or negative or whatever it is that we’ve been shut down for.

Underneath the Narcissism

People that struggle with narcissism will have to devalue and even humiliate people at times.

Mostly, the need for inflation is rooted in shame and the feeling that must be something fundamentally wrong with my own three-dimensional self.

Shame is toxic if lived in, because shame induces this way of being ultimately rejected, so to have an underlying source of shame that you can’t tolerate having, you have to develop all sorts of defenses to not actually even recognize that it’s shame (i.e.: criticalness).

A narcissist sees things as a reflection of themselves. So because of that, they need to annihilate that in you. If you’re too close, you cannot have weaknesses because it’s a reflection on myself. And one of the ways that comes out is the criticism and putting you down.

Success is scored and discussed because you don’t get in a better place than I must deal with what that feels like.

Important note:

Narcissism and narcissistic defenses are not a conscious thought. In fact, much of this is implicit, automatic and instinctual.

So, believe it or not, the scorn, the critical kind of rage is almost automatic.

The reason it’s there is almost about survival for a narcissist.

What Do We Do About It?

Recognize the automatic process and the behavioral aspects – understand that this is about human beings that want to be loved.

To help someone move out of narcissistic tendencies, hold them kindly and softly while you give them feedback.

Question the narcissistic injury from early on and start with the recognition of the intolerance of yourself or intolerant of others.

Know that you are loved and valuable and not perfect. You don’t have to be idealized, and you don’t have to be perfect. When you’re not perfect, it doesn’t mean you’re on the ground.

Accepting non-perfection is being able to accept feedback with humility and not being injured by it.

Admit a shortcoming and move on without excessive apology

Being in the Green

If you find yourself relating to any of these things, know that we’re all human messes, not better or worse than anyone else. If you admit a shortcoming, it doesn’t mean that you’re bad. As a matter of fact, it means you’re joining in this world of imperfect human beings.

The green is not perfection.

The green is knowing. And it’s the integration, rather than the denial, of areas that are hard for us, our shadow in this loving way and the ability to stay connected to people.

Final Thoughts

Remember, even the most arrogant narcissistic person out there can be just excruciatingly wounded by criticism. If you can, see them with compassion. They wouldn’t have to inflate if they felt that great about themselves. See the young scared child in them. This might help us be able to both stay in three-dimensional self, not lose ourselves, and see them in a way that they really need. The reason they’re puffing themselves up is because they want to be loved, and they want to be connected. It is not to hurt anybody They’re very scared, and it’s hard to remember that somebody, underneath that defense, is really, really scared and doesn’t know it.

Resources:

The Drama of the Gifted Child, Alice Miller (You must read this if you have early trauma – title isn’t reflective of power of the book!)

Episode 93 on Polyvagal Theory w/ Dr Stephen Porges

Psychoanalytic Diagnosis by Nancy McWilliams (textbook for therapists and students, but stay tuned for way more articles etc from her in a future podcast)

 Narcissism Infidelity and Trauma 

 

Who doesn’t love special offers?

Our course is now available for a deeply discounted pre-sale purchase price! While this course is aimed toward clinicians (CE’s available!), all are welcome to purchase the course. Price increases on October 16, 2019 when it is released.

CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION

 

We’re on Patreon! 

Become a Super Neuronerd, a Gold Neuronerd or an Out and Proud PLATINUM NEURONERD today! 🙂 

Join our exclusive community of Therapist Uncensored Neuronerds for just $5 a month!

 Gain access to private community and exclusive content. 

Help us create a ripple of security by sharing the science of relationships around the globe!

NEURONERDS UNITE! Click here to sign up.

 

 

Tweet

Recent Episodes

Secure Relating & the Election: Fostering Connection in Political Division (249)

Secure Relating & the Election: Fostering Connection in Political Division (249)

The political events in the United States have been a major contributor to our anxieties these past years, and with our significant presidential election looming over us this week – Ann and Sue are here to talk about the hard things. While the world feels unpredictable on the outside, one thing we can do is focus on the intricate relationship between our nervous systems and the emotional responses triggered by political events. They discuss how fear and anxiety are often manipulated through political rhetoric, leading to division and polarization, the importance of understanding how personal relationships amidst these tensions
are emphasized, and the need for secure relating and accountability from leaders. There is power in recognizing the complexity of political opinions and the necessity of maintaining open dialogue to foster connection rather than division. Join us as we explore how to navigate differences, the importance of empathy and community, and the need for resilience during uncertain times.

read more
LIVE from KUYA Wellness: A Discussion on Secure Relating & Tough Conversations (248)

LIVE from KUYA Wellness: A Discussion on Secure Relating & Tough Conversations (248)

Alongside Pam Benson Owens, Ann and Sue explore a variety of topics with a live audience at the KUYA Wellness center in Austin, TX. Referencing their book, Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World, they delve into the neuroscience behind relationships, discussing attachment styles and emotional regulation, and emphasize the importance of creating safe spaces for dialogue. They highlight the significance of understanding generational trauma and the complexities of navigating relationships in a diverse society. Through personal stories and insightful discussions, they shine a light on the power of self-awareness, encouraging listeners to explore their own emotional landscapes with compassion and curiosity. Learn how creating safe spaces for open dialogue can deepen connections, while understanding the role of pauses and curiosity in everyday conversations.

read more
New Frontiers of Adult ADHD James Ochoa (247)

New Frontiers of Adult ADHD James Ochoa (247)

James Ochoa and co-host Sue Marriott explore the different subtypes of ADHD, and the impact on adults who are navigating a diagnosis later in life. As an ADHD expert, Ochoa shares insights on the emotional and mental stress that accompanies ADHD, as well as provides different techniques for managing symptoms. With an emphasis on the importance of self-care, communication, and personalized strategies, he provides resources and training for adults with ADHD, professionals who work with ADHD clients, and family members of individuals with ADHD.

read more
Challenging Defenses: An Introduction to Experiential Dynamic Therapies (EDTS): (246)

Challenging Defenses: An Introduction to Experiential Dynamic Therapies (EDTS): (246)

Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley discuss Experiential Dynamic Therapies (EDTs) with experts Margaret Martin and Dr. Deb Pollack. These therapies focus on recognizing and challenging defenses that lead to
problems both internally and relationally. Learn the difference between defenses that feel right (Egosyntonic) and those that don’t (Egodystonic) and why it’s important to work against them for change. This episode is a deep dive into the role of EDTS in couples’ therapy, and highlights the need for an integrated approach to address underlying trauma, plus much more!

read more
Liberating Marginalized Couples from Relational and Systemic Trauma with Akilah Riley-Richardson (245)

Liberating Marginalized Couples from Relational and Systemic Trauma with Akilah Riley-Richardson (245)

Sue Marriott and Akilah Riley Richardson dive into a compelling discussion about the vital need to center marginalized voices in therapy. They explore how Western perspectives have shaped therapy practices globally, often overlooking diverse cultural approaches. Akilah brings a fresh, challenging perspective to the table. She pushes for a real shake-up in how we approach therapy, especially when working with marginalized couples. It’s not just about tweaking existing methods – she’s calling for a fundamental rethinking of our assumptions.
The conversation tackles some heavy topics, from unpacking the concept of relational privilege to developing strategies that help couples see beyond their individual struggles to the bigger picture of systemic trauma. It’s eye-opening stuff.  What really stands out is their focus on the deep impact of systemic trauma. They don’t just acknowledge it – they dig into why it’s so crucial for therapists to truly understand and address it in their work.
Ultimately, this discussion isn’t just academic. It’s a call to action for therapists to step up, broaden their perspectives, and find new ways to help couples break free from systemic constraints. It’s about empowering relationships and, in the process, maybe changing the face of therapy itself. Get it ad-free: www.therapistuncensored.com/join Go to shownotes www.therapistuncensored.com/tu245.

read more
Therapeutic Psychedelics: Discernment, Science, and the Need for Theory with Nigel Denning (244)

Therapeutic Psychedelics: Discernment, Science, and the Need for Theory with Nigel Denning (244)

Australia is ahead of the US when it comes to legalizing psychedelics, so we can learn from their experience as it rolls out. Exploration of psychedelic-assisted therapy – the efficacy, skepticism, and the future of state-change therapeutics with Nigel Denning. shownotes: www.therapistuncensored.com/tu244 www.therapistuncensored.com/join

read more
Improv: Fostering Connection in Challenging Conversations (243)

Improv: Fostering Connection in Challenging Conversations (243)

Dr. Ann Kelley and Lisa Kays discuss how improv can deepen conversations around tough topics like race and oppression. They examine white supremacy culture and show how improv values like collaboration, slowing down, and embracing complexity can challenge these norms. Improv fosters creativity, playfulness, and self-reflection to help reduce defensiveness and strengthen relationships in everyday life, at work, or in our closest relationships. By creating a supportive, collaborative environment, improv deepens connections and helps people tap into a wider range of emotions.

read more
Protection or Connection? Neural Pathways & Regulation Basics – Replay (242)

Protection or Connection? Neural Pathways & Regulation Basics – Replay (242)

Everyone is familiar with reacting “in the heat of the moment,” but do we really understand what that means? Regulation basics include the protection or connection pathways to interpersonal relating. With the high tension we’re experiencing in the world today, it can feel particularly challenging to practice secure relating. We are re-sharing one of our impactful episodes where Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott explore the inner workings of our nervous system auto-pilot settings: protection vs connection.

read more
Journey to Self-Discovery: Navigating Identity & Mental Health as a Korean American Immigrant Hyeseung Song (241)

Journey to Self-Discovery: Navigating Identity & Mental Health as a Korean American Immigrant Hyeseung Song (241)

Dr. Ann Kelley and Hyeseung Song, a first-generation Korean American discuss Hyeseung’s experiences growing up as an Asian minority in America, touching on topics like racial stereotypes, assimilation, and the model minority myth .Hyeseung shares her journey of finding her voice and identity, highlighting the mental health challenges of navigating between cultures.

read more
Addiction, Attachment & the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model with Jan Winhall – Replay (240)

Addiction, Attachment & the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model with Jan Winhall – Replay (240)

Enjoy this replay episode with Jan Winhall, as we explore how our bodies can guide us towards healing and growth through the
concept of “felt sense.” This approach integrates neuroscience and focuses on our innate ability to perceive and respond to our experiences. Winhall’s work challenges conventional views on navigating challenges influenced by culture and trauma.

read more
Episode Swap: Secure Relating with Ann & Sue on The Baffling Behavior Show (239)

Episode Swap: Secure Relating with Ann & Sue on The Baffling Behavior Show (239)

One of the many incredible aspects of this community are the people we are able to connect and learn with, like Robyn Gobbel.
She is a licensed social worker, podcast host, keynote speaker, writer, trainer & consultant – and even host launch this spring. This episode, Ann and Sue joined her on her podcast, “The Baffling Behavior Show”, to talk about secure relating.

read more
Managing Intense Feelings for Kids and Grownups with Lindsey Kealey (Replay) – (238)

Managing Intense Feelings for Kids and Grownups with Lindsey Kealey (Replay) – (238)

As our schedules shift for summer, we think revisiting this episode with expert Lindsey Kealey is the perfect reminder. The warmer weather is great for vacations or some weekend fun in the sun, but we also know that the shift in schedule can be tough for parents and children. Little minds can have big feelings and in the spirit of secure relating, we are taking the opportunity to revisit strategies for teaching kids how to regulate their emotions and promote positive connection with others. Lindsey Kealey introduces a trauma-informed program grounded in neuroscience, employing social-emotional learning and problem-solving techniques to enhance decision-making and relational well-being. Through her Three C’s approach – connect, calm, and collaborate – she aims to revolutionize interpersonal dynamics, empowering individuals to interact more positively with themselves and others.

read more

What else do you want to learn today?

Pin It on Pinterest

Share This