TU135: Holding Your Own Session 3 – Covert Narcissism (3rd in a Series)

by | Nov 10, 2020 | Emotional Intelligence, Episodes, Mindfulness, Narcissism, Relationships | 0 comments

Show Notes

Holding Your Own with Challenging Personalities – staying (or becoming) secure in relationship with those with covert narcissism.

Session 3 – Staying secure in connection with one kind of narcissism:  covert narcissism

When does self-consciousness and self-reflection cross the line into self-preoccupation? Covert narcissism is also called thin-skinned, vulnerable, depressed or closet narcissism. It's a real thing but unlike grandiosity, it's quite hard to spot!  Think about it – if you feel when you walk in a room everyone is looking at you – admiringly or judgmentally, either way – that is a narcissistic fantasy. Today's episode follows the other side of grandiosity. Find more here www.therapistuncensored.com/episodes

Co-hosts Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott have launched a new series titled “Holding Your Own with Challenging Personalities.” Together, they’ll sort out the differences between the various forms of narcissism – grandiose, covert and malignant, as well as look at what has been called borderline traits. The goal of this series is to bring you the skills and practices that help you ground and stay in your secure self no matter what is swirling around you.

This series builds on itself so we recommend that you listen to Sessions 1 and 2 first before jumping into this episode, but if that isn't your cup of tea, then by all means, the episode will be solid on it's own. 

To start at the beginning & hear the previous episodes in the series click here: TU132 HYO Session 1 Messy but Secure Relating  and TU133 HYO Session 2 Grandiose Narcissism.

Covert Narcissism

It has so many different names:  vulnerable, thin-skinned, depressed narcissism… it's a real thing but unlike grandiosity, it's quite hard to spot!  That's why they call it “covert.” Sometimes, somebody in the corner that looks like they're avoiding and shunning attention can make us focus our attention on them. There is an ability to be very loud while staying very quite.

What's the difference? Why are they both called Narcissism?

  1. Covert narcissism is something many of us can relate to – super self-conscious about imagining everyone judging us – negatively.  Yet it's still special, just negatively special.  We all do that at times but it's a matter of degree – how self-centered and self-focused are we?
  2. All narcissism is about our relationships with shame. For grandiose narcissism, shame is projected out into other people. But in covert narcissism, shame is being pulled in from all around us as another form of being exceptional.
  3. Because of the way covert narcissism uses shame, it is also sometimes called depressed narcissism. So what's the difference between depression and covert narcissism? Depression is often an utter depletion, a flatness in your body where you feel empty, but still have a sense of self. Simply put, it's you that's bad. Cover narcissism on the other hand pushes those feelings outward, and often losses the sense of self. It's more of a feeling of bitterness and like something was done to you. Simply that it's the world that's bad to you.
  4. Often, this is associated with achievement. A covert narcissist might thinks they must be the most attractive in the room, and if they aren't that, then they are at the bottom of the pile.  They've tied their sense of self and their self-esteem to the approval of others.
  5. This really comes from how we're valued through our development. If we're valued because of what we can bring to someone else, it's really hard to feel the development of a true sense of identity. Instead, a covert narcissism unconsciously needs to bring the negative attention towards themselves to create rescue ie attention, thus providing a sense of worthiness.  Sounds odd we know, but it's true.  They are highly sensitive to rejection and overly personalize – there you can see the narcissism, it's all about them and their injury.

How can you tell you're dealing with a covert narcissist?

If you're being used to maintain someone else's self-esteem that signal of narcissism in general.  If not getting filled by that extension, there is a desperate sense of emptiness right below the surface. Importantly, a covert narcissist can often come across as the victim which can initially bring out a lot of sympathy.

Really ask yourself, how many people are in this relationship?  Are you orbiting the other, walking on egg shells?   In a relationship with a covert narcissist you can really lose your own sense of self and own identity. You can become afraid of celebrating your success, or feel the need to downplay an achievement of yours in order to not upset your partner. If you start to hold yourself the other person may feel threatened at the differentiation.

What can you do in the face of covert narcissism?

  • Most importantly, we should help people with covert narcissism find their sense of agency.
  • This includes an imperfection.
  • Instead of identifying the external situation that was done to someone, we can turn towards identifying their own role in a situation. Challenge the internal narrative that they are the victim of some external harm.  The idea is to build up their own sense of self and creates a more complete identity not tied to other relationships or people.
  • In fact, if we join with their experience too much, and are overly agreeable, that can often aid the feeling of victimization. When you move to hold the other person at the expense of you, usually trying to protect their feelings, it doesn't help move out of the narcissistic dynamic.
  • Also, you can start to hold your own. Take a breath, maybe one or two or ten, and settle down to avoid just getting into a fight. Don't just push off and leave them high and dry with their envy or pain, but also make sure you're not going to collapse completely and protect their feelings.
  • The big take away from all of this is helping people move into a stable in-between space.
  • You aren't the greatest best person ever, but you also certainty not the worst. We're all human, with our own identities and imperfections and that's all okay!

Why a podcast series?

Our normal episodes serve as great snack packs of information about a wide range of topics, but don’t often let us go into as much depth as maybe we could. We had originally planned to create a course on narcissism and healthy relationships that would really allow us to dig deep and unpack this all at a level that a regular podcast just wasn’t able to do. But given the nature of the content and the times we’re living in we decided to bring you all that course FOR FREE in the form of this new mini-series that we’re doing here at Therapist Uncensored! We’re still working out all the kinks on this new format for all of you so feel free as always to hit us up with any feedback on how this new format is working!

Our plan is to release episodes much more frequently through the series and then go back to our every other week format.

Nobody fits in a box!

In this series we set the stage and call out pathological use of labels and diagnosis.  We begin with secure but messy relating and then wade into the various traits that can become personality based on degree.

Resources

This is not our first rodeo, see these previous episodes on the subject:

To start at the beginning, listen to the previous episodes in the series: TU132 HYO Session 1 Messy but Secure Relating  and TU133 HYO Session 2 Grandiose Narcissism.

B078KXGS98

TU 111 Navigating Narcissitic Relationships Manipulation Gas-Lighting and Grandiosity Called Out 

TU107: Narcissism – What's Going on Underneath the Defense? 

TU107: Our Powerful Fascination with Narcissism in the Era of Trump

TU 23 Building Grit through Self-Compassion with Kristin Neff

Attachment Disturbances in Adults Comprehensive Treatment & Repair (2016) Dan Brown and David Elliott

(This is Sue's favorite textbook on attachment currently)

Traumatic Narcissism the Relational Systems of Subjugation by David Grey

Recent Episodes

New Frontiers of Adult ADHD James Ochoa (247)

New Frontiers of Adult ADHD James Ochoa (247)

James Ochoa and co-host Sue Marriott explore the different subtypes of ADHD, and the impact on adults who are navigating a diagnosis later in life. As an ADHD expert, Ochoa shares insights on the emotional and mental stress that accompanies ADHD, as well as provides different techniques for managing symptoms. With an emphasis on the importance of self-care, communication, and personalized strategies, he provides resources and training for adults with ADHD, professionals who work with ADHD clients, and family members of individuals with ADHD.

read more
Challenging Defenses: An Introduction to Experiential Dynamic Therapies (EDTS): (246)

Challenging Defenses: An Introduction to Experiential Dynamic Therapies (EDTS): (246)

Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley discuss Experiential Dynamic Therapies (EDTs) with experts Margaret Martin and Dr. Deb Pollack. These therapies focus on recognizing and challenging defenses that lead to
problems both internally and relationally. Learn the difference between defenses that feel right (Egosyntonic) and those that don’t (Egodystonic) and why it’s important to work against them for change. This episode is a deep dive into the role of EDTS in couples’ therapy, and highlights the need for an integrated approach to address underlying trauma, plus much more!

read more
Liberating Marginalized Couples from Relational and Systemic Trauma with Akilah Riley-Richardson (245)

Liberating Marginalized Couples from Relational and Systemic Trauma with Akilah Riley-Richardson (245)

Sue Marriott and Akilah Riley Richardson dive into a compelling discussion about the vital need to center marginalized voices in therapy. They explore how Western perspectives have shaped therapy practices globally, often overlooking diverse cultural approaches. Akilah brings a fresh, challenging perspective to the table. She pushes for a real shake-up in how we approach therapy, especially when working with marginalized couples. It’s not just about tweaking existing methods – she’s calling for a fundamental rethinking of our assumptions.
The conversation tackles some heavy topics, from unpacking the concept of relational privilege to developing strategies that help couples see beyond their individual struggles to the bigger picture of systemic trauma. It’s eye-opening stuff.  What really stands out is their focus on the deep impact of systemic trauma. They don’t just acknowledge it – they dig into why it’s so crucial for therapists to truly understand and address it in their work.
Ultimately, this discussion isn’t just academic. It’s a call to action for therapists to step up, broaden their perspectives, and find new ways to help couples break free from systemic constraints. It’s about empowering relationships and, in the process, maybe changing the face of therapy itself. Get it ad-free: www.therapistuncensored.com/join Go to shownotes www.therapistuncensored.com/tu245.

read more
Therapeutic Psychedelics: Discernment, Science, and the Need for Theory with Nigel Denning (244)

Therapeutic Psychedelics: Discernment, Science, and the Need for Theory with Nigel Denning (244)

Australia is ahead of the US when it comes to legalizing psychedelics, so we can learn from their experience as it rolls out. Exploration of psychedelic-assisted therapy – the efficacy, skepticism, and the future of state-change therapeutics with Nigel Denning. shownotes: www.therapistuncensored.com/tu244 www.therapistuncensored.com/join

read more
Improv: Fostering Connection in Challenging Conversations (243)

Improv: Fostering Connection in Challenging Conversations (243)

Dr. Ann Kelley and Lisa Kays discuss how improv can deepen conversations around tough topics like race and oppression. They examine white supremacy culture and show how improv values like collaboration, slowing down, and embracing complexity can challenge these norms. Improv fosters creativity, playfulness, and self-reflection to help reduce defensiveness and strengthen relationships in everyday life, at work, or in our closest relationships. By creating a supportive, collaborative environment, improv deepens connections and helps people tap into a wider range of emotions.

read more
Protection or Connection? Neural Pathways & Regulation Basics – Replay (242)

Protection or Connection? Neural Pathways & Regulation Basics – Replay (242)

Everyone is familiar with reacting “in the heat of the moment,” but do we really understand what that means? Regulation basics include the protection or connection pathways to interpersonal relating. With the high tension we’re experiencing in the world today, it can feel particularly challenging to practice secure relating. We are re-sharing one of our impactful episodes where Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott explore the inner workings of our nervous system auto-pilot settings: protection vs connection.

read more
Journey to Self-Discovery: Navigating Identity & Mental Health as a Korean American Immigrant Hyeseung Song (241)

Journey to Self-Discovery: Navigating Identity & Mental Health as a Korean American Immigrant Hyeseung Song (241)

Dr. Ann Kelley and Hyeseung Song, a first-generation Korean American discuss Hyeseung’s experiences growing up as an Asian minority in America, touching on topics like racial stereotypes, assimilation, and the model minority myth .Hyeseung shares her journey of finding her voice and identity, highlighting the mental health challenges of navigating between cultures.

read more
Addiction, Attachment & the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model with Jan Winhall – Replay (240)

Addiction, Attachment & the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model with Jan Winhall – Replay (240)

Enjoy this replay episode with Jan Winhall, as we explore how our bodies can guide us towards healing and growth through the
concept of “felt sense.” This approach integrates neuroscience and focuses on our innate ability to perceive and respond to our experiences. Winhall’s work challenges conventional views on navigating challenges influenced by culture and trauma.

read more
Episode Swap: Secure Relating with Ann & Sue on The Baffling Behavior Show (239)

Episode Swap: Secure Relating with Ann & Sue on The Baffling Behavior Show (239)

One of the many incredible aspects of this community are the people we are able to connect and learn with, like Robyn Gobbel.
She is a licensed social worker, podcast host, keynote speaker, writer, trainer & consultant – and even host launch this spring. This episode, Ann and Sue joined her on her podcast, “The Baffling Behavior Show”, to talk about secure relating.

read more
Managing Intense Feelings for Kids and Grownups with Lindsey Kealey (Replay) – (238)

Managing Intense Feelings for Kids and Grownups with Lindsey Kealey (Replay) – (238)

As our schedules shift for summer, we think revisiting this episode with expert Lindsey Kealey is the perfect reminder. The warmer weather is great for vacations or some weekend fun in the sun, but we also know that the shift in schedule can be tough for parents and children. Little minds can have big feelings and in the spirit of secure relating, we are taking the opportunity to revisit strategies for teaching kids how to regulate their emotions and promote positive connection with others. Lindsey Kealey introduces a trauma-informed program grounded in neuroscience, employing social-emotional learning and problem-solving techniques to enhance decision-making and relational well-being. Through her Three C’s approach – connect, calm, and collaborate – she aims to revolutionize interpersonal dynamics, empowering individuals to interact more positively with themselves and others.

read more
Security Individually, Relationally, and in Community with Ann & Sue 3 of 3 (237)

Security Individually, Relationally, and in Community with Ann & Sue 3 of 3 (237)

This is our final part where we lean into the last section of the book to help us all build a deeper connection, Moving from individual to interpersonal and then societal levels, we discuss the complexities of human connection. Ann and Sue touch on leadership and the need for nuance in navigating today’s challenges while aiming to expand beyond just the Western lens. Whether it be with your partner or even how you navigate your community – building security helps us find a state of curiosity, openness, and wonder.

read more
Shifting Activation Levels: Part II of Secure Relating with Ann & Sue (236)

Shifting Activation Levels: Part II of Secure Relating with Ann & Sue (236)

Following the launch of the book, our virtual party, and our Modern Attachment conference in Austin, TX, Ann and Sue open with gratitude from the event, and for the overwhelming outpour of love and support from our community and those who help inspire this content. As we dive into more chapters of the book, we lean into understanding the attachment spectrum colors, recognizing what is happening internally when we feel activated, and shifting activation levels.

read more

What else do you want to learn today?

Pin It on Pinterest

Share This